Okay, I have spent the last fifteen minutes trying to back my argument up, and I simply can't do it. The only reason you would want to put Special moves on an Electabuzz is if you want to turn that 3HKO with Thunderpunch on Skarmory into a 2HKO with Flamethrower.

However, you could still put Flamethrower on an Electivire and still have a 2HKO with Flamethrower, even without any EVs into Special Attack. However, this means you will have an attack that you are using for just one Pokemon, and even then you might get whirlwinded out. I hate to say it, but Mixed Electivire simply doesn't work.

Yes, you get the upper hand on Skarmory, and Forry if you fear it that much, but that's as far as it goes. Flamethrower has to be boosted by a Positive nature and 252 Spatk EVs in order to 2HKO Metagross - that's just bloody stupid. Similarly, you can only OHKO Aerodactyl with a minimum of 160 Attack EVs on a Neutral natured Elevtivire using Thunderpunch; you get to 2HKO (as opposed to 3HKO) a threat that's going to kill you anyway, and in return, you don't OHKO a threat that will always kill you no matter what.

Check this:

With a positive nature and 92Spatk EVs, you get this:



That's the mixedvire set.

Now, go with Electivire - Adamant - 252Atk EVs and use EQ and you get this:



Now that's a sure fire 2HKO that you don't need to sacrifice a moveslot or a ton of IVs for or a nature.


I hate to switch my argument guys, but the hard evidence speaks for itself. No matter how much theorising we do, the figures show that MixedVire has just two advantages:

-OHKOs Forretress
-2HKOs Skarm

and that opens up a hell of a load of problems:

-Fails to OHKO its main threat, Aerodactyl
-Doesn't help in countering other threats, such as Charizard or Metagross
-Have to sacrifice valuable EVs
-Have to change the nature and lose +Atk for the sake of +Spatk

So, Sapph was right. If he'd put forward the figures to his argument, this might have been settled a while ago.

I'm not saying that the proverbial case is metaphorically closed, because I'm looking forward to when someone will prove me and sapph wrong; I really like the idea of an Electivire getting the upper hand on Skarmory.

4ever_bug_catcher: I'm afraid it doesn't eliminate its counters with ease, if anything, it has trouble eliminating things that it quite easily eliminated beforehand.

Roar of Time: Tyraniboah can take down those two well, but it also has the upperhand of taking down a hell of a lot else; while Electivire has the potential to take down the infamous SkarmBliss combo, it then stops it from taking out other common OU threats that it would otherwise handle with ease.

Closing comment: Yeah, Thunderbolt on an Electivire is pretty stupid.

But the point of mixedvire is not to OHKO aerodactyl or any other sweeper. The only reason a player would use a mixedvire is to counter the counter the opponent sends out...

For example:
It's your electivire against a gyarados. The opponent switches out gyara and sends in let's say tangrowth and he thinks that he's walled you now and you are forced to switch while he sets up. But what if you had HP Ice or Flamethrower and KOed Tangrowth? You just got an advantage over your opponent...

So, to sum up, since NOBODY is going to switch a sweeper against electivire, because most sweepers are really frail, electivire's main job is to get an advantage over your opponent by taking a large chunk off their walls or even KOing them before he goes down.

All Physical Electrive can be walled by Skarm or something like Steelix, also an Mixed Electrive can counter more walls and Pokemon

The very purpose of any sweeper is to OHKO things, and if you can't OHKO something as brittle as Aero, then you're in big trouble. And Tangrowth can endure a hell of a lot; you're better off just switching to your Special Sweeper, because regardless of your Electivire's mixedness, it still won't OHKO Tangrowth, or at least, that's my guess.



But that's the same for if it's physical; it's still going to put dents in the opponent, if they're walls or not. The disadvantages just outweigh the advantages.

Roar of Time: Aerodactyl is totally screwed over when Electivire has received a boost from Motor Drive; speed isn't the issue when Elec gets hit by an electric attack.




Doesn't that prove my point? That doesn't mean that you should just go mixed for the sake of it making no better. You should only deviate from the norm / standard if it actually benefits you, which it doesn't.

And as for the EV spread; that's not going to help, surely? And you'll be taking up one/two moveslots for the sake of coverage that won't even be boosted.



Did you not read the whole of my post? That's the whole reason why Mixedvire is such a bad idea, because it doesn't counter any walls better other than Skarmory (which, as I've said, allows for a load of other disadvantages to crop up.)

Can someone else actually provide some hard statistics, because it wasn't until I did that I realised I was wrong. What exactly is MixedVire hitting harder than Electivire?

I believe Obsidian wolf has brought out my point...a sweeper who chooses not to get 1HKOs when it could is kinda weak. The sacrifice you make to counter a FEW walls is that you might not be able to 1HKO Pokemon that you normally could if you had Thunder Punch instead of Thunderbolt. You see, it doesn't pay that well....it comes with a risky disadvantage....

Also, I shall remind you people of this fact once more: The Typical Skarmory gets KOed in 2 hits by Thunder Punch, as with Thunderbolt so it doesn't really matter. Anyway, Forrretresses aren't really used that often because Skarmories can do the Job better and they don't usually pump it's Defense stat because it's Sp. DEf kinda sucks....so for Typical Forretresses they still get 1HKOed by Fire Punch.

Another case where you'll wished that you had Thunder Punch instead of Thunderbolt is when you battle a Suicune....Mirror Coat hurts a lot...

Also, what Wall is so scary that you're willing to sacrifice so much just to counter it? With Skarmory and Forretress out what else is left? I don't feel like running through the whole Pokemon list to single them out so just enlighten me.

Saph raises an important point, you have to consider what you can't ohko anymore.

But aerodactyl is definitely not enough of a reason, I mean I'd definately trade some health for Aero in exchange for not being walled.

But the major issue is that... well Electivire still gets walled no matter what for the most part.

It's just complex and difficult to get out of that. Fortunately you can customize and use sets like the mixed set to fill whatever slot it's best for on your team.

So yes, it's inconclusive until someone does the research.

Sapph, you keep talking about 'Typical' sets for Pokemon; where are you getting the Nature / EV spreads from?

I used Smogon for all of mine, and using their suggested sets, I got this:



So look; Skarmory is usually 2HKOed by TPunch. See below, and you'll see that MixedVire also 2HKOs it.
Aerodactyl is OHKOed (but this is only if Elec hits first when it has Motor Drive. Otherwise, don't even think about trying to outspeed it.)
Suicune takes a fair old amount (and yes, the EVs are placed like that to take full advantage of Mirror Coat.) Not that anyone would be stupid enough to switch Suicune into an Electric Pokemon.

Now, MixedVire:



There, happy now? If you use Thunderpunch, you gain the sole advantage of having a small chance of OHKOing Skarmory. However, you also manage to take off 50%+ of Suicune's health which will (if the opponent has already seen you take out Skarm) be reflected back by Mirror Coat, and you can say goodbye to your Mixed Vire. So, Thunderpunch > Thunderbolt.

However, Thunderpunch is no way near as powerful on the Mixed set as it is on the physical set. As a result, it's safer to use Flamethrower on things like Skarm and Forry, (as you'll get them on a 2HKO) and then punch the rest.

But other than Skarm and Forry, what else are you actually countering with MixedVire?

And I think we need these statistics, because otherwise your point is not proven or going to be taken seriously. We can all talk about 'standard this' and 'typical that' but in the end, it's just theorising. We need to have hard evidence in the form of statistics.

Since i can't think of anything to say to prove my point, after reading Obs' damage calculations, i'll have to admit that Sapphirath was right about this one... But that does not mean that it goes the same for all mixed sweepers

Too true, it's just that Electivire's mixed ability doesn't actually help him, when there are other thingst that do it much better, like Infernape and Deoxys S (shudders at its OUness)



Surely the statistics given are hard evidence enough; I used Metalkid's Damage calculator, and a battle will only produce the same results, making it something of a waste of time to breed two Electivires, one of which we KNOW will be worthless on the competitive scene.

If you want to try it, you can use Shoddy.

Why would you want to test it on Shoddy if it's just going to yield exactly the same results?

You said that it would be a waste of time to breed two electivires, one of which will be useless, so i gave you a solution to that problem...
I am not saying you HAVE TO test it; i just suggested it for whoever might want to

electivire@motor drive
jolly
thunder punch
ice punch
brick break/cross chop
EQ

cross chop is a good move but it has low acc and mit not hit

Super special awesome de ja vu.

ZOMG Dé Ja Vù in movesets! And EVEN in the same order!

Although, OU guys are not my specialty, I have one different set for it.

Electivire @ Shell Bell
Motor Drive.
Hasty | I've never liked the 252/252/6 EV Spread, but if there is no other option...
. Low Kick
. Thunderbolt
. Ice Punch
. Substitute

* Once this thing appears... what happens?

Low Kick is what you'd like to use on the likes of Tar and Hippo for massive chunks of damage, especialy against Tar, but not that much damage on the regular Max HP/Def Blissey, since it will not even be a 2HKO, and even less if it packs Charm.

The idea behind Thunderbolt is to maim Skarmory. I used to look at Flamethrower for this, but then, I remembered Heatran... and I remembered I don't like him.

Substitute? Yes, why not? I like that move because it blocks all manners of Status attacks that might arrest your progress, thus, making Shell Bell the prefered item over Expert Belt.