It is currently Thu Apr 18, 2024 6:50 am



Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
 Charizard Discussion 
Author Message
Pokemon Master
Pokemon Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:03 am
Posts: 1559
Location: Dragon's Den
Okay, Charizard has long been dubbed the 'best Belly Drummer in the game,' and it has only been recent as to why I have realised this is so.

Quote:


Charizard
{charizard}
BellyDrummer:

Charizard@Salac Berry
252Atk 252Spd
Adamant / Jolly Nature

Substitute
Belly Drum
Fire Punch
Fly / EQ / Dragon Claw

Set analysis: Okay, you are probably wondering what the hell I am thinking, putting Sub and Fly on this set. Substitute serves a number of reasons; if you can set up Substitute, then you are absolutely clear to use Belly Drum before sweeping. But if I have the chance to use Sub and survive, why not use Belly Drum? I hear you ask. Well, Sub also cuts your health by 1/4 which is a good thing. Taking off 3/4 of your health (Belly Drum = 1/2, Sub = 1/4) means that you will activate both Salac Berry and Blaze, making your already amazing attacks amazinger. :P

Now, for the attacking side of things; Fire Punch is chosen over Flare Blitz simply because you'll only get one hit otherwise; 25% of your health left will soon diminish as you perform manically powerful attacks against your opponents. And Fly...well, this may seem like a ludicrous option, but look at it this way:

You have a 90 Base Power attack which is gaining STAB. That's immediately better than EQ. The draw back with Fly is that people see this is a free turn to switch to a counter. Well, what counter is there to a STABbed boosted +6 Atk Fly?

Quote:
Charizard - Adamant - 252ATK - +6ATK

Uses Fly:

Skarmory - Impish - 252HP 152DEF: 43.71% - 51.50%
Aerodactyl - n/a - n/a - 113.62% - 133.55%
Cresselia - Bold - 252HP 126DEF - 76.13% - 89.41%
Metagross - n/a - 252HP - 92.79% - 109.23%

Regarding Skarmory: May not look impressive, but then you deal Fire Punch to it, and it dies immediately. (It would do anyway, but we're assuming the opponent switches on the turn before you hit them. )

Aerodacyl - I listed him solely because people would see that he resists both of Charizard STAB attacks, and it also has Stone Edge to knock Charizard off. Stats speak for themselves in this case.

Cresselia - As with Skarm, you then just hit it with Fire Punch (Salac guarantees you outspeed it.) and kill it.

Meta - On the chance you don't OHKO this beast (as not all of them carry 252HP on them) you can then just outspeed it with Fire Punch.



If you don't like Fly because of your lack of coverage, you can also go with either EQ or Dragon Claw;

With EQ, you hit things just as hard without having to take a turn to charge up. However, with this, you are then forced into using Fire Punch on anything that has Levitate or is part flying. This isn't too much of a problem, however, when factoring in Fire Punch's Blaze boost, and when the Sun is shining, the damage is massive; Sword of Destiny provides the calculations here:

Quote:
Salamence(252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP): Damage: 122.89% - 144.58% (after Intimidate)

Dragonite(252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP): Damage: 145.37% - 171.30%

Gyarados(252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP): Damage: 124.10% - 146.08%(after Intimidate)

Bulkydos (212 HP, 16 Atk, 180 Def, 100 Spd): Damage: 86.17% - 101.60% (after Intimidate)




Sword of Destiny also provides a Special Set:

Quote:
Charizard @ Choice Specs/Life Orb
Timid - Blaze
252 SpAtk, 252 Spd, 6 HP
~ Flamethrower/Fire Blast
~ Focus Blast
~ HP Grass/Air Slash
~ Dragon Pulse/HP Ice

Use Flamethrower, unless you are willing to sacrifice 20% accuracy for more power. Focus Blast is a nice move to have to be able to deal a considerable amount of damage to Blissey. The only reason to have HP Ice would be dragons, but you already have Dragon Pulse for them, so the best type to have is Grass. But, if for some reason you want to have Ice, you can put Air Slash in the final slot.
Choice Specs for more power, or Life Orb to be able to switch moves.


If you're confident enough, you could try and mimic SpecsMence's Draco Meteor, only using Overheat instead. However, this is rather situational, and doesn't have the same coverage. Still a fun amount of damage though. Oh, and the mention of HPIce; it would do more to Dragons than Pulse because of most Dragon's quad weakness to Ice; but then if you're carrying DPulse anyway, they're unlikely to willingly switch into that sort of attack just because they have just a x2 weakness to an attack.

Quote:
Charizard @Choice Band/Scarf
Jolly/Adamant - Blaze
252 Atk 252 Spd
~Flare Blitz/Fire Punch
~EQ
~Focus Punch/Rock Slide
~Shadow Claw/Focus Punch/Rock Slide


Not quite as strong as the Special version and doesn't hit nearly as hard as the Belly Drum version, Roar of Time introduces a safer Charizard, a hit and run, if you will. The attacks suggested are for full coverage over the many types, and it looks like you'll be scoring S/E hits on the main OU threats. Just watch out for Swampy.


Other set ideas are welcome to, and I'll edit them into this post. ;)

_________________
Image

"Play with fire and expect to be burned."


Last edited by The Obsidian Wolf on Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:44 am
Profile
Psychic Trainer
Psychic Trainer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:01 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Lost in the chaos
You forgot one of the best counters: Heatran. It's immune to fire punch and resistant to fly. Also, Rhyperior might be a problem, as he's resistant to both of the attacks; especially if he's carrying the curse set.
So, i think that EQ might be a better move. You don't need STAB, you'll be OHKOing everything anyway, except pokemon with really high defense, such as skarmory.

Now, a special set would be:

Charizard @ Choice Specs/Life Orb
Timid - Blaze
252 SpAtk, 252 Spd, 6 HP
~ Flamethrower/Fire Blast
~ Focus Blast
~ HP Grass/Air Slash
~ Dragon Pulse/HP Ice

Use Flamethrower, unless you are willing to sacrifice 20% accuracy for more power. Focus Blast is a nice move to have to be able to deal a considerable amount of damage to Blissey. The only reason to have HP Ice would be dragons, but you already have Dragon Pulse for them, so the best type to have is Grass. But, if for some reason you want to have Ice, you can put Air Slash in the final slot.
Choice Specs for more power, or Life Orb to be able to switch moves.


Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:53 am
Profile
Pokemon Ranger
Pokemon Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:25 am
Posts: 691
Another one.....

{charizard} @Choice Band/Scarf
Jolly/Adamant
Flare Blitz/Fire Punch
EQ
Focus Punch/Rock Slide
Shadow Claw/Focus Punch/Rock Slide




Quote:
Charizard@Salac Berry
252Atk 252Spd
Adamant / Jolly Nature

Substitute
Belly Drum
Fire Punch
Fly


Instead of Fly add in EQ

_________________
Image
Clickage



<Derek> is anyone here ??
<AngrySparrow> No
<Derek> im gonna leave because no one is here
*** Derek has quit (Exit: Psypoke Forever!)


Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:40 am
Profile
Pokemon Master
Pokemon Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:03 am
Posts: 1559
Location: Dragon's Den
Quote:
You forgot one of the best counters: Heatran. It's immune to fire punch and resistant to fly. Also, Rhyperior might be a problem, as he's resistant to both of the attacks; especially if he's carrying the curse set.
So, i think that EQ might be a better move. You don't need STAB, you'll be OHKOing everything anyway, except pokemon with really high defense, such as skarmory.


Okay, regarding Heatran: Using the set that I showed you, CHarizard does 70.90% - 83.28% to a Heatran (neutral nature, no HP / Def EVs.) And then what is Heatran going to do anyway? It'll usually be locked into Specs FireBlast anyway.

And Fire Punch / EQ has a few rather nasty drawbacks; Salamence, Dragonite, and Gyarados. EQ doesn't hit any of them, and Fire Punch doens't OHKO them, which is essential seeing as they can all take that 1/4 HP out of Charizard;

Fire Punch on:

Gyarados - 51.56% - 60.68%
Salamence - 72.81% - 85.80%
Dragonite - 65.02% - 76.47%

Now, Fly just OHKOs the lot of them. Also, Gyara and Salamence also have Intimidate, which isn't desirable.

Certainly, EQ has more coverage, but when Charizard is hitting things as hard as it is, it doesn't really matter, does it?

Quote:
You don't need STAB, you'll be OHKOing everything anyway, except pokemon with really high defense, such as skarmory.


Yes, but it wasn't STAB I was worried about; it's what you can actually hit; EQ is walled by Flying types, and that forces you to use Fire Punch against things that resist it (like the three Pokemon I listed.)

_________________
Image

"Play with fire and expect to be burned."


Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:45 am
Profile
Psychic Trainer
Psychic Trainer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:01 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Lost in the chaos
The Obsidian Wolf wrote:
Fire Punch on:

Gyarados - 51.56% - 60.68%
Salamence - 72.81% - 85.80%
Dragonite - 65.02% - 76.47%


Are you sure? It should have been a OHKO with max attack... Did you consider Blaze?

EDIT: I've done the calculations and these are the results with Blaze activated:

Quote:
Salamence (252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP): Damage: 81.93% - 96.39% (after Intimidate)

Dragonite (252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP): Damage: 96.91% - 114.20%

Gyarados (252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP): Damage: 82.83% - 97.29% (after Intimidate)

Bulkydos (212 HP, 16 Atk, 180 Def, 100 Spd): Damage: 57.45% - 67.55% (after Intimidate)


But for better sweeping, you should have another pokemon set up Sunny Day. These are the results with Sunny Day activated:

Quote:
Salamence(252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP): Damage: 122.89% - 144.58% (after Intimidate)

Dragonite(252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP): Damage: 145.37% - 171.30%

Gyarados(252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP): Damage: 124.10% - 146.08%(after Intimidate)

Bulkydos (212 HP, 16 Atk, 180 Def, 100 Spd): Damage: 86.17% - 101.60% (after Intimidate)



So yeah, you are still right, but if you use Sunny Day, you can forget Fly and put EQ instead.


Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:01 am
Profile
Psychic Trainer
Psychic Trainer

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:10 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Australia
The solution for the bellyzard set would be Dragon Claw instead of fly. Super effective against those pesky dragons and neutral on anything else other than heatran. The fire/Dragon combo is only resisted by heatran.

But personally I believe the special set is the way to go
Charizard@life orb/choice scarf
timid/modest
Heat wave
Focus Blast
Air Slash
Dragon pulse/Hp Grass/[b]solarbeam[/b]

The last spot is entirly up to preference but i find solarbeam has its uses. You send out charizard, they send out there bulky ground/water type on the turn you charge up. Next turn they cop a beam of sunlight and get OHKO (best case scenario lol)

_________________
[url=http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=bulkywaters][IMG]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff241/Taserface/sigbanner.png[/IMG][/url]

FC: 2320 4109 0925


Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:23 pm
Profile
Pokemon Master
Pokemon Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:03 am
Posts: 1559
Location: Dragon's Den
I've added all your suggestions into the first post, thanks people. ;)

And I've just checked the damage calculations for HEatran and Rhyp, and fly does pretty poor damage to them both. It's a 2HKO for Heatran, which is crap seeing as that ugly beast will KO 'zard with Dragon Pulse, and something like a 3/4HKO on Rhyp.

However, the list of counters is opened up more if you use EQ, because you are forced to use Fire Punch which is only good if you factor in Sunny Day. You're right, I'd not counted Blaze into the calculations, but even so, you're failing to OHKO things that show up for more often than Heatran and Rhyp (I've noticed, and I think the Shoddy logs would back me up; don't know where I'd find them though! :P ) and I think that the 600 dragons (and Gyarados, more importantly thanks to STAB waterfall imo.)

But yeah, it's all up to preference, and I've shoved both options into the first listed set. ;)

_________________
Image

"Play with fire and expect to be burned."


Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:34 am
Profile
Pokemon Ranger
Pokemon Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:22 am
Posts: 815
{charizard} @ Petaya Berry
Modest | Blaze
252 SA, 252 Spd, 6 HP
~Flamethrower
~Air Slash/Roost
~Dragon Pulse
~Substitute

A set I use for late-game sweeps. Switch on a Choiced Ground/Fightning/Grass move, and make sure rocks are up. Sub on the switch and you have +1 SA and Blaze activated with an untouched Sub. FlamePulse is only resisted by Heatran. Air Slash has STAB and hits Heracross and Breloom harder. Roost is a better option for him, though.

_________________
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
('')_('') signature to help him gain world domination

The Jonatron wrote:
Xatu Unlickely this guy wont get powered.


Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:52 am
Profile
Psychic Trainer
Psychic Trainer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:01 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Lost in the chaos
^Isn't that set based too much on luck? What if your opponent doesn't use stealth rock? Or if they don't have any banded pokemon with the moves you said? And btw, a strong fighting attack will do more than 25% damage, so your strategy is ruined...
You also need predicting skills, because your opponent might switch out on the same turn you switch in charizard.

I'm not saying it can't be used, but you need to be very careful and have good predicting skills...


Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:49 am
Profile
Pokemon Ranger
Pokemon Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:22 am
Posts: 815
Sword of Destiny wrote:
What if your opponent doesn't use stealth rock? Or if they don't have any banded pokemon with the moves you said?

Stealth Rock is too common. Common enough to bump Moltres, Charizard and Aerodactyl down.

Nowadays every team carries Grass Knot because of bulky waters and rocks, Swampert mainly.

_________________
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
('')_('') signature to help him gain world domination

The Jonatron wrote:
Xatu Unlickely this guy wont get powered.


Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:59 am
Profile
Pokemon Master
Pokemon Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:03 am
Posts: 1559
Location: Dragon's Den
Isn't a Choiced attack going to do more than 25% to Charizard?

Imagine:

You switch Charizard into Choice Banded Fighting attack:

50% gone thanks to SRock.

25%+ thanks to the attack

Substitute does...nothing?

Also, Roost really isn't doing anything on that set. What's the point on putting a recovery move on something doesn't last more than two hits? Water and Rock are massively used in this generation, more so than last, and this set hinges on luck that even then won't save 'zard.

_________________
Image

"Play with fire and expect to be burned."


Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:30 pm
Profile
Pokemon Ranger
Pokemon Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:22 am
Posts: 815
Quote:
You switch Charizard into Choice Banded Fighting attack:

50% gone thanks to SRock.

25%+ thanks to the attack

Substitute does...nothing?


Then you managed to activate Petaya without Subbing.

Btw Jolly ScarfHera CC does %39-46 on average. Without Rocks on you can easily scare it off.

_________________
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
('')_('') signature to help him gain world domination

The Jonatron wrote:
Xatu Unlickely this guy wont get powered.


Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:41 am
Profile
Pokemon Ranger
Pokemon Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:25 am
Posts: 627
Location: Singapore
Charizard would probably have to be the lead Pokeom...else it can't do much at all when Stealth Rock's out. :wink:


Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:36 am
Profile
Pokemon Ranger
Pokemon Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:25 am
Posts: 627
Location: Singapore
One thing I kinda missed out...a Sub plus a Belly Drum won't activate Salac Berry...a Big prob because there are plenty of Pokemon like Weavile, Aerodactyl, Garchomps, Gengars and so on. Anyone has any ideas on how to activate the berry after Charizard Subed? I was thinking perhaps a Tyranitar who would fight till it faints and then Charizard gets sent out...sandstorm + Substitue + Belly Drum should be enough to activate the Salac Berry...but this plan seems a little too complicated...anyone has any better ideas? :?


Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:05 am
Profile
Pokemon Master
Pokemon Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:03 am
Posts: 1559
Location: Dragon's Den
Sapphirath wrote:
One thing I kinda missed out...a Sub plus a Belly Drum won't activate Salac Berry...a Big prob because there are plenty of Pokemon like Weavile, Aerodactyl, Garchomps, Gengars and so on. Anyone has any ideas on how to activate the berry after Charizard Subed? I was thinking perhaps a Tyranitar who would fight till it faints and then Charizard gets sent out...sandstorm + Substitue + Belly Drum should be enough to activate the Salac Berry...but this plan seems a little too complicated...anyone has any better ideas? :?


If your Charizard has an IV that makes Charizard's HP divisible by four, then yes, the Belly Drum + Sub technique will bring you down to exactly a quarter of its HP (which is the number required to activate the Salac Berry.) The most practical of IVs for this would be 30 IV in HP, as that would give it an HP stat of 296, while not being abysmal defensively.

Also, Charizard won't be sweeping for long at a quarter health while having its HP leeched by Sandstorm.

_________________
Image

"Play with fire and expect to be burned."


Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:23 pm
Profile
Pokemon Ranger
Pokemon Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:25 am
Posts: 627
Location: Singapore
So you mean if its HP is divisible by 4 then Salac Berry WILL activate? I thought Salac Berry only activates if HP is less than 1/4. OOOO...no wonder nothing happened when I tried it out...damm that means I'll have to raise a new one... :?


Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:34 pm
Profile
Psychic Trainer
Psychic Trainer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:01 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Lost in the chaos
Actually you don't have to raise a new one if you haven't leveled it up to 100. Just change the EVs to make it divisable by 4


Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:44 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 17 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 111 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.