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Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
http://psypokes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=31438		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  ChillBill [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
SwagPlay isn't Ubers material. We're not talking about a ban to Ubers here; we're talking about a clause, one that will affect all tiers.
Author:  MasonTheChef [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
Can you source that?

Smogon's discussion is in the OU sub forum:
Quote:
The purpose of this thread is to gather opinions from the playerbase on how the above strategy is perceived. When the discussion is over, the OU Council will decide how to move forward. This means that, notwithstanding the current rules of this forum, you are allowed to discuss about potential bans to make the SwagPlay strategy less effective.


and PO's discussion states:
Quote:
Discuss the possibility of banning Swagger from the XY OU Metagame, if need it be, within Pokemon Online's tiering in general. Please make intelligent posts based on experience and knowledge of the tier. We will infract for poor posts if it does not fit the criteria asked for.


Both just sound like an OU ban at the time.

Also Smogon has closed their discussion thread for "thread turning to utter garbage" I found that funnier than I should.
Author:  ChillBill [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
I'm just saying what I consider right. Swagger isn't something that's gonna be neutralized by becoming Uber. In fact, the Ubers meta is affected even more, as if e.g. Rayquaza hurts itself at +2, it literally commits suicide, while at the same time, if it doesn't, it is unstoppable. The only thing with meaning is a Swagger clause. If we're talking about specific tier bans, then it's pointless.
Author:  GofD [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
I think I understand what Chillbill is saying. The only clause I personally think would work is what I said in a post awhile ago:

Limit swagger to one poke per team.

I cant really think of anything else, other than giving Confusion a max term limit, but that might be viable or really have any point, considering what Swagger does to begin with.

I think Swagger might be one of those things where no matter what happens, no one is gonna be happy. From what I can tell, it might be hard to find a middle ground that everyone would be happy with.
Author:  shinashu taji [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
The problem is there is no real middle ground for this debate. One might try to inflict a confusion clause, one that works exactly the same as Sleep Clause, but then one would have to forego any move that has any chance of confusion as a secondary chance which would really only be affected by Hurricane and Dynamicpunch in the higher tiers.

Honestly it should stay as is, force people to break out and form some more anti-meta strategies to counter this, and once the perfect counter to this happens it will go back into the realms of fads past.
Author:  ChillBill [ Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
The problem is that you can't break out of it. There are no counters. This isn't paraflinching. Unless you start using gimmicky stuff like Own Tempo Slowbro, it won't work. And the moment something becomes so annoying that it forces things like Own Tempo Slowbro to be used, you know something's wrong.
Author:  MasonTheChef [ Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
ChillBill wrote:
The problem is that you can't break out of it. There are no counters. This isn't paraflinching. Unless you start using gimmicky stuff like Own Tempo Slowbro, it won't work. And the moment something becomes so annoying that it forces things like Own Tempo Slowbro to be used, you know something's wrong.


Actually Regenrator Slowbro works just fine if not better, since it's not holding on to the attack boosts that boost the SE Foul Play. A regen Slowbro or any regen core can stall the strategy quite well by just switching in/out. But this does take forever to PP stall out, much less 3-4 PrankSwag users.

I do agree with it being claused rather than banned. Since the strategy works the same in all tiers, and the users stats are basically irrelevant. I still stay by just removing the combo of Prankster+Swagger. It keeps the strategy around, but without the priority it actually becomes possible to break out of the confusion cycle to land a hit. Likewise Prankster+Confuse Ray would still be legal but lacks any bite either with self damage or Foul Play, but keeps the priority turn denial aspect in the meta.
Author:  GofD [ Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
Im gonna have to say a clause is really the only middle ground they can do on the subject. The facts to ban it are strong, while the facts for it not to banned are just as strong. Some sort of Clause will have to be implemented if in testing or whatever they plan on doing.

I see three possible clauses:

-Teams may only have one prankster user
-Swagger+ Foul Play+T-wave will be an illegal set up on Prankster Pokemon (To the argument of Luck, this makes the opposing person have extremely good luck, plus adds to the insanity of the set )
-Swagger is banned on Prankster users (2nd option on the poll, I have since changed my vote)


Of the three, im personally more open to the third now , after seeing what a none prankster user is able to do with swagplay, the set is still usable and just as luck reliant, but the opponent now has at the very least a chance to knock it out before the.....trouble begins, I guess is the best way of describing it. This is the BEST middle ground in my opinion, keeping a viable set still usable, yet still giving people a chance against it (at least on smogon, cause Prankster SwagPlay will still exist in online play on the DS.)
Author:  MasonTheChef [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
So PO quickbanned Swagger from OU. http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthr ... sion/page5

And Smogon has the move up as suspect. But given PO and their suspect thread it will be banned as well.

I'm actually kinda surprised by this, especially since Endless battle clause was brought around recently to take a similar uncompetitive strategy out of OU. (Recycle+Leppa+Block+Any move that heals the opponent) They made the clause very precise to just remove the strategy but none of the moves involved instead of easily just banning Recycle from OU. Yet when faced with another uncompetitive moveset they decided to blanket ban a move from OU regardless of collateral damage. Good bye SwagPlay general, Swag+Imposter, and Spore+Swag.

As for PranksterSwag Users, they'll be ruining Ubers for the next few months.
Author:  GofD [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
Well Dang........Guess I cant play test Amoongus on my Nidoking team Anymore.

I think this may (?) cause some kind of backlash (AKA, people only wanting Swagger+Prankster banned).

I really think this is one of those things where you cant make everyone happy, you just gotta try to make everyone as happy as possible.
Author:  MasonTheChef [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
Well, you got two weeks or so to use it..

It's going to be interesting to see what goes down after they ban it. It seems that most casual players don't want a straight swagger ban or ban at all, while more hard competitive players want it gone completely. And when the only people who can vote are the top 45 in the suspect ladder, it's pretty one-sided on how the outcome is going to be.

This will likely be followed by waves of DDoS attacks for the next few weeks, then another troll strategy will come up like Funbro and PrankSwag teams before it.

My money is something involving Infestation.
Author:  GofD [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
MasonTheChef wrote:
It's going to be interesting to see what goes down after they ban it. It seems that most casual players don't want a straight swagger ban or ban at all, while more hard competitive players want it gone completely. And when the only people who can vote are the top 45 in the suspect ladder, it's pretty one-sided on how the outcome is going to be.

This will likely be followed by waves of DDoS attacks for the next few weeks, then another troll strategy will come up like Funbro and PrankSwag teams before it.

My money is something involving Infestation.


Ah, I did not know thats how the voting works. I do agree that is a little one sided. Not sure what you mean by infestation, I havent really battled anyone with it.
Author:  MasonTheChef [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Opinion on banning Swagger from OU?
Well it's only the people that have a rank higher than 1850 in the suspect ladder that can vote.

Infestation is a trapping move I've seen abused on some mons in battle spot to wear and basically timestall wins.
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